Curse

blood4blood · Nov 21, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Considering that it is a proper name, I agree that "Mesmer" should be spelled correctly...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesmer

There's lots of problems with mesmer as a PvE profession.

Consider two of the basic starting skills: Empathy & Backfire. One good vs. physical attackers, one good vs. casters, either is wasted if cast on the wrong type of enemy. Compare that to something simple like an axe attack that does extra damage, and it's a no-brainer (literally). From the very start, mesmer skills are more specific and more limited in usage. It gives a bad impression compared to other classes that are more general purpose in nature, and makes it much more difficult to start out with a mesmer than any other class.

Combine that with the limited number of starting skills are characters get. Most starter builds are pretty lame, but at least most characters don't have to rely on a specific type of enemy in order to use their skills. (Assassins and others may use synergies and skill chains, but they are dependent on their own skill usage, not the enemy, except in rare circumstances. Mesmers are far more limited by the type of enemy being faced than any other class.)

Possible solutions ... take illusion magic and do damage! Yeah, right. As others have pointed out, mesmers cannot compare to others in PvE as damage dealers, the numbers just don't add up. OK, so go domination and interrupt/shutdown! Not a bad idea, but again, there is the problem of skills being highly dependent on what the enemy does, but even more importantly, as others have pointed out, the AI NPC's are better at it than any human player who is limited by human reaction time and the vagaries of his/her internet connection. Common endpoint --> "OK then I'll take Empathy, and Backfire, and Conjure Illusion, and Cry of Frustration, and Elemental Resistance, and have one or two skills to deal with any situation!" = mesmer skillbar that just sucks, because only one or two skills will end up being useful at any given time = reinforces the general impression that mesmers suck as a profession.

Next, as you get more skills, well gee, other classes get more general-purpose skills AND they get more specific, conditional type skills. (Go from a generic damage axe attack to one that depends on deep wound, Dwayna's instead of Orison, etc.) But the mesmer is still as dependent as ever before, if not more so. Now other classes have even more options, and can be specific if they want to, but they don't have to. Mesmers still have to specialize to be effective, they just have more skills to choose from...what a gd pain that is, huh?

Side effect: unless you already have skill unlocks, already know what monsters you face in each area, and already have multiple builds prepared ahead of time, mesmers generally seem to spend more time tweaking and setting up in town than any other profession. That means if I take a mesmer in a PUG and he's unprepared, I'm almost always going to be wasting time waiting. Combined with the other things already mentioned, there's a pretty decent chance if he's a new mesmer that his skill choices are very limited, and so is his effectiveness. Result = most people don't want mesmers in PUG's, only mesmers they already know (and sometimes not them either tbh).

What else? Oh yeah, the highly skilled and effective PvE human-player mesmer. Does such exist? Sure, I've even PUG'd with a few who were very good in their effectiveness at stomping AI. The few I've seen like that all were experienced players with a wide array of unlocks, and often played PvP more than PvE. (Yes, I asked.) The thing is, most of us never reach that point because how boring and frustrating it is to level up a PvE mesmer in the first place.

Bottom line for me: I finally managed to keep a mesmer, out of all the ones I've started and deleted. She turns a year old next month. And she's still level 17, because she's about the most boring character I've ever played. That's only my opinion, but fwiw, there it is.

around · Nov 21, 2007, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

This class is all about manipulation, and some people just aren't deep enough thinkers with the abilities to make the mesmer class shine like it can.

Elaborate more. I see this all the time, usually unsupported.

Mordakai · Nov 21, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by blood4blood

Bottom line for me: I finally managed to keep a mesmer, out of all the ones I've started and deleted. She turns a year old next month. And she's still level 17, because she's about the most boring character I've ever played. That's only my opinion, but fwiw, there it is.

Sounds like you need to play an Illusionary Weapon Mesmer....

but, as you say, you first have to get the Elite skill to enjoy it.

Mesmer was the first character I got to level 20. I took it because I rarely saw other Mesmers around and wanted to be different.

To get into groups, I took met shower and arcane echo. I think I also had Empathy, Backfire, some energy gain spells, etc. All in all, I had no trouble finding groups to take me (this was back in 2005, and there WAS actually competition to get into groups!), and people seemed to find my character competent.

Of course, I could have been even better as a Fire Ele with 16 fire and arcane echo, but I justfied my choice with the fast casting... (I could get off multiple Met Showers faster than an ele).

Tarkin · Nov 21, 2007, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Why so few mesmer in pve? because mesmer skills are weak to pve and you need a lot of exp to play as a mesmer... choose the correct target... stay away from damage... some good time to cast...

I see people talking about cry of pain... 5 skills to do 100 damage and wait for 15 seconds for recharge is ... 3 mesmer 300 damge every 15 seconds... 3 sf eles hummm 40 damage every... 4 seconds? 15 seconds... 120? x 3 360... some meteors to help some degen... 500 damage every 15 seconds? sure...

Mesmers are a brain class... not a mass damage class...

3 SS necros? 15 seconds 5 actions 37 damage each... 185? x 3 555 damage every 15 seconds... plus some minions + some degen 700 damage every 15 seconds?

Mesmer hole in a party is... monk killer, boss killer... kill something harder to kill
how i kill glint before its easy to kill? Spirit of Failure + Spirit Shackles + some chance to miss skills + blind glinth simple dont cast any one skill... i dont need interupt glint because glint dont have energy to cast and cant hit no one because blind or have a great miss chance...

The only way you can make mesmers a big help to kill foes is like cond spreader. spread deep wound, blind, weakness and dazed is precilless... or make the mesmer a 1 foe killer per time...

well if you in a friendly party you can play as ele/mo party healer or a rit/necro mm or 8 monks party... with your friends you can play any build you want... you can play a bar with 5 skill to cause 100 damage every 15 seconds...

P.S i love mesmer class and everytime i can i use one in my party... but you need to understand mesmer not a pve destroyer is a pve helper...

sorry about my weak english

I D E L E T E D I · Nov 21, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Buff Mesmers so they are more effective in PvE!

If they Buff mesmer for PvE like reducing the recharge on ineptitude. It will just cause problems for the PvP side. Mesmers are fine the way the are tyvm

Stormlord Alex · Nov 21, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Hmm.
Read the OP. Mesmer was spelt wrong repeatedly.

And I'm assuming the other 12 pages is a flame war ("MEZMARS SUCK LOLOL!!!11!" ... "NO U!!!") 'debating' the (lack of) effectiveness of the Mesmer class in PvE, with only a couple of people truly having a clue (.... likely Avarre and Ensign

).

Am I correct? Or do I have to read?

Mordakai · Nov 21, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

If they Buff mesmer for PvE like reducing the recharge on ineptitude. It will just cause problems for the PvP side. Mesmers are fine the way the are tyvm

Well, I'd eventually like to see a spilt between PvP and PvE skills.

Anet is going that direction with PvE only skills, but I wonder if it would be possible to split regular skills as well.

Stormlord Alex: yep. Pretty much.

I D E L E T E D I · Nov 21, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

Hmm.
Read the OP. Mesmer was spelt wrong repeatedly.

And I'm assuming the other 12 pages is a flame war ("MEZMARS SUCK LOLOL!!!11!" ... "NO U!!!") 'debating' the (lack of) effectiveness of the Mesmer class in PvE, with only a couple of people truly having a clue (.... likely Avarre and Ensign

).

Am I correct? Or do I have to read?

Your right
1234567890

I D E L E T E D I · Nov 21, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Well, I'd eventually like to see a spilt between PvP and PvE skills.

Anet is going that direction with PvE only skills, but I wonder if it would be possible to split regular skills as well.

Stormlord Alex: yep. Pretty much.

Personally i think it is fine the way it is. PvE has its range of overpowered PvE skills although not many would be useful to a mesmer. But then again most of the pve skills are useless for a monk too. I really hope ANet wont split normal skills into pvp and pve skills.
For a start it probably would be very hard to keep track of all the changes made to the skills.
EDIT: sorry for double post -_-

Mordakai · Nov 21, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

I still think the debate goes:

"Mesmers suck for DPS"

"Yes, but they look sexy."

I D E L E T E D I · Nov 21, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I still think the debate goes:

"Mesmers suck for DPS"

"Yes, but they look sexy."

Anyone who has played HM knows that DPS isnt the only thing that matters. And i dont mean playing HM as in 1 tank and everyone else nuke the crap out of the aggored mob.

Mordakai · Nov 21, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

Anyone who has played HM knows that DPS isnt the only thing that matters. And i dont mean playing HM as in 1 tank and everyone else nuke the crap out of the aggored mob.

obviously, I was kidding around...

I hoped it was obvious anyway!

I D E L E T E D I · Nov 21, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Didnt see the quotation marks xD

wsmcasey · Nov 21, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Elaborate more. I see this all the time, usually unsupported.

There's no real need to elaborate. Alot of mesmer skills are situational. You need to think ahead and prep a skill bar in advance for the enemies your fighting.

You want support? Here's the description of a Guildwars Mesmer from the Professions Info section here on Guru:

Mesmer
Mesmers are the masters of the counter. Whatever another character does they have a way of countering it. Of preventing it, of ignoring it, of reducing or eliminating it. Depending on their skills and their inclination Mesmers can ruin absolutely anyone?s day by preventing them from doing what it is they want to do.

Mesmers are the masters of shutting down single targets.

Avarre · Nov 21, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsmcasey

This class is all about manipulation, and some people just aren't deep enough thinkers with the abilities to make the mesmer class shine like it can.

Yes, that's the abstract of the Mesmer class. That's the theory behind the idea of the class. Where exactly does this 'deep thinking manipulation' come in?

Dom/Illu hexes? Select target of the appropriate melee/caster persuasion that presents the greatest threat, fire away.
Energy Denial? You pick a target and you throw it at it. Mobs don't weaponswap.
Dom nuking? Click target, press button.
Interrupting? No more so than any other class with interrupts.
Shutdown such as Blackout/Diversion? Fire at will, timing doesn't matter against groups that are not self-sustaining.

None of these things are any more 'deep' than any other class. People spend a lot of time saying Mesmers are complex, but in PvE, there really isn't any complexity because the depth of the class is in the enemy you're facing. PvE is one-dimensional, and therefore your play is also one-dimensional, compared to PvP where you have to try and create opportunities and dismantle your opponents on a tactical as well as character level.

Quote:

There's no real need to elaborate. Alot of mesmer skills are situational. You need to think ahead and prep a skill bar in advance for the enemies your fighting.

And how many skills do you specifically pick out for a zone, compared to how many you keep on because they work in many areas? We just had a long discussion about a dom nuker Mesmer that was entirely generic. Picking certain skills to work in a zone isn't Mesmer-specific, every class does it to some extent. The fact is, most PvE areas are the same, comprised of a bunch of melee and caster mobs that are all really the same.

To be honest I see three levels of players regarding Mesmers. They go like this, and apologies if anyone is offended. This idea sets out my view of why Mesmers do not see much play in PvE.

1) The player is new, and only sees things in simple terms of damage dealt. They think Mesmers are bad because the skills don't seem to do as much as big Elementalist spells.

2) The player has played for longer, and has experimented with the Mesmer class itself. They see how the skills work, gain an appreciation for them, and believe the Mesmer class is very solid due to certain applications where they work.

3) The player has played for a long time and examined the skills and their use comparatively in multiple areas. They believe the Mesmer works but is not as effective as other classes when played at high levels of competence due to class skill and game design.

I also feel that each stage can be likened to the general view of players in the three chapters of Guild Wars, but others' experience may vary.

New players fall in stage 1. They do not pick up the Mesmer. Older players are in stage 3. They do not keep the Mesmer or play it (unless they have no other PvE characters that are set up, like me). The thinning middle ground is noticeable in Guild Wars, and there are fewer players in stage 2 - resulting in fewer Mesmer players.

Mordakai · Nov 21, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I like that tier system.

I guess I'm a 2, because I'm not a number cruncher, I don't make ideal builds, and am more likely to just shove some skills on my bar (and my heroes bars) and strut off, and hope for the best...

Plus, I get bored of playing the same build easily.

That said, I don't play my Mesmer much more anyway, so maybe I am getting older...

the_jos · Nov 21, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Ok, here is my 10c on the mesmer and why they are not played that much.

First, mesmer is about working off-target.
Putting a skill like Backfire on the main target is a waste of energy.
The target will be down in a few seconds, backfire will not last the full duration.
This is something people see and they think: mesmer is bad, they don't do much damage.
If there is no off-target (like playing with a tank and balling enemies) there is no role besides some AoE.

Second, mesmer is about psychological pressure.
I surgested a build to a guildie for RA a couple of days ago and he returned that he got some very nasty words from a couple of casters.
That was because people could not handle the pressure from the build.
Put the same spells on a NPC and they would not care less.
Sure, they can't use their skills anymore at some point... So what?
Full degen, slower casting spells, no adrenaline gain? AI don't care. Humans do.

Third, mesmer DPS is outclassed by a lot of other professions.
Except a few situations, the things a mesmer can do can be done by other professions. With better utility skills.

Fourth, mesmers are about team build (I mentioned that in my earlier post).
To be the most effective, a mesmer should fill the gaps that others create.
However, there are a lot of solid team builds that do not have gaps a mesmer could fill.
This is true for more professions, assassin most noticable.

Misconseptions about mesmers are also in the game.
Mesmer is supposed to be hard to play.
Yes, they are. Just as much as any other profession out there when you want as effective as possible.
Mesmers might have a slightly steeper learning curve than other professions (physicals have higher auto dps), but it's not harder to fully master the profession fully compared to others professions.

Mesmers suck.
That's also not true. However, because of the way (PUG) teams are created and the way the game is played most of the time, there are professions that would fit better.
It's more fair to state that (the lack of) AI sucks.

Now does all this really matter?
Depends on the way you look at things.
It does if you want to do things as fast and effective as possible.
While I had no problem getting my mesmer through EotN story and was faster than a lot of other people I know, the moment I took my para I was even faster than with my mesmer. And I have only a couple of hours experience on my para and more than 1000 on my mesmer.

When I help others, I help with my mesmer most of the time, only play other professions on request or when I see that the other profession would fit better in the team.
That's because most of those others don't play as efficient as possible in the first place. So I know how I can benefit the team with my mesmer.

But....
It's a game.
It's about fun.
Mesmer = fun (for me).

That's more important than running the most efficient profession

Shanaeri Rynale · Nov 21, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

.

New players fall in stage 1. They do not pick up the Mesmer. Older players are in stage 3. They do not keep the Mesmer or play it (unless they have no other PvE characters that are set up, like me). The thinning middle ground is noticeable in Guild Wars, and there are fewer players in stage 2 - resulting in fewer Mesmer players.

I'm sorry but I read the above as 'unless you agree with me and are at my made up stage 3 you're not a good player' which tbh is just wrong and out of touch with reality.

The little list above could be said of any profession of player, not just the mesmer profession. Don't attempt to put your jaded view of the profession as somehow seeing the light and being the ultimate state of truth. It's not, it's a point of view, an opinion with merits and demerits. Just the same as mine or any one else's view here.

There is an alternative to your summary of 3. That of people who are very skilled in all aspects of PvE play, but choose to play their chosen profession because they enjoy it in full knowledge of it's pro's and cons and in some cases because of it.

The thinning of the game as a whole(and therefore of the mesmer profession) has very little to do with PvE effectiveness, it's more to do with people having less to do, not liking the grind or there being other games that offer what they want.

freekedoutfish · Nov 21, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

Question: Why are you still spelling Mesmer wrong?

Because I was sat in uni, extremely stressed out when I wrote it. Forgive me if my mind wasnt fully on the job.

I D E L E T E D I · Nov 21, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Because I was sat in uni, extremely stressed out when I wrote it. Forgive me if my mind wasnt fully on the job.

lame excuse -_-